Ed Sciaky: Hello Annie!

Annie Haslam: Hello, I'm back!

You're back (Annie: "Yes!") and you brought with you a special guest ... a rare, now this is a rare appearance ... by the lady who I always said that, who was ... I'd say, 'Annie who is this Thatcher woman ... who writes all these lyrics?' And she'd say (in Annie's accent) 'She's Betty, that's Betty Thatcher, she writes these lyrics for all the Renaissance songs ...' and oddly enough, though I've been a Renaissance fan these twenty-plus years, never met Betty before, so now this, we have a chance to meet Betty as she's over here visiting Annie here in America. And welcome Betty Thatcher!

Betty: Ah, yep, thank you ... and nice to meet you ...

And, in the words of General Stockdale, who are you and why are you here? (Significant Annie Haslam laugh!)

No, you know, we know who you are, but who, tell us, you know, this is, there are a group of people, Renaissance fans in this area who, who have heard of you that loved your lyrics for years and really don't know that much about you. You've kind of been a mystery extra member of Renaissance and we never get to see you play with the band; you just sit at home and write lyrics I guess (Betty: "Yeah.") ... so where is home for you?

I live in, uh, Cornwall in England ...

In Cornwall. And how far is that out of London?

Oh, three hundred miles, quite a way, (Ed: "Good run ...") yeah.

And, uh, you've been doing this for many years, how, I, and when we had dinner the other night, when you kind of told me so, I wanna get you to, kind of, I said, we gotta come in, gotta have you come in and tell the fans about who you are and how you came to do this. So how did it all start for you, getting involved with, uh, Renaissance?

Yeah, well I wasn't a writer at all, and I was a friend of Jane Relf's, Keith Relf's sister, who just formed the original Renaissance. (Ed: "um hmm ...") And he was looking for lyrics and he read a couple of the letters that I had just written his sister Jane from Cornwall, where she lived, and he said, uh, he rang me up and I didn't know who he was, he was just Jane's brother Keith. He said, 'could you write some lyrics', and because I was young, too young to be afraid, I said, 'of course I can.' So I did. And that's how it began.

What were you doing, uh, other than that, before you were writing?

Oh, I was doing a bit of everything, it was, I live in a seasonal place. So you work seasonal, do whatever you can do.

Oh, what was the first, uh, song you wrote ... did you just generate it yourself, you just wrote a poem, or ..

Yeah, I sent some words to Keith, umm, I think umm, "Love Is All, Love is One" ... which is dreadful, really, I don't think you' ve [got] the album out in this country, it's on the Illusion album ...

Indeed, that was the second album, yeah, I do have it, import ...

Yeah ... it was a pretty awful song, but for a first one ... sweet ...

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Love Is All" from the Illusion album.)

And you gave it to him first, but it didn't get recorded until later, or released 'til later (Betty: "Yeah.") ... and then you went onto do other stuff, like, was it "Kings And Queens" or,

Yeah, oh yeah, "The End Of Innocence", yep, which is the last four lines that turns the song around, because the whole song I thought was a bit, uh, you know "innocence, innocence" and it just seemed so smooth and childlike ... and I just turned it around and said 'yes, I think you should ask why' and he liked, Keith liked that. It was a good twist.

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Kings And Queens" from the Renaissance album.)

Did you, did you have conversations with him first about what the band was about or what kind of material ...

Yeah, yeah, because he came down to stay in Cornwall, he did quite often ... (Ed: "Um hmm.") and actually he called the album Island after an island that isn't quite an island in Saint Ives ... (Annie: "I didn't know that, oh.") There's a place in St. Ives called The Island (Ed: "uh huh ...") and I think on one of the songs it says, ' there is an island where it shouldn't ever be' ...

This is on the first Renaissance record ...

And Keith wrote that about an island that isn't quite an isle, it's got a big causeway, in St. Ives, in Cornwall, so he came down a lot. And we talked about blending classical music with blues or rock-and-roll; and that was his idea and I think it's turned into, well it did turn into a really good band.

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Island" from the first Renaissance album.)

Lovely ... Renaissance, from the first album ... "Island" ... we're speaking with Annie Haslam and lyricist for Renaissance, Betty Thatcher, here on the 'Sunday Night Alternative' ... That first album came out here in America (Betty: "Yeah ...") ... and then the second one didn't, it was released in France (Betty: "Yeah ...") and it was at that time that the personnel changed and along came ... young Anne Haslam (Annie: "Annie!") ... Annie ... ("Yes") Yes, well, our Anne, ("Our, our ... our, our ...") yes, or, were you known as Annie your whole life, or always known as Annie, or?

I was 'our Anne' to my Mum and Dad, but to everyone else I was Annie ... yeah ... (laughs)

So, ah ... (laughs) ... and to bill-collectors you were, uh, ("Yeah.") I don't know, something else ... ah, so, and, but, you told me you actually knew Annie previously, before she joined the band, ("Yeah.") right?

I was um, I wanted to be a commercial artist. Annie wanted to be a designer, a dress designer, ("A dress designer, yeah.") and so we had mutual friends and I was introduced to Annie in 1968, ("before I started singing ...") way before Annie was a singer and before I was a writer as such.

Um hmm. So you were friends before that?

We knew each other vaguely and used to meet up in the Ear, Nose and Throat Hospital ...

Yeah, that was very strange when I had, you know, my big ear thing ... and I was, I had this operation. I went back for a checkup and there's Betty sitting there and that's the next time I saw you, wasn't it? ("Yeah, having a checkup ..." (laughs)) And she was having a checkup, cause she's, she's had big problems with her ear as well ...

Was this in London, or in? so you came along ...

In London ... just out of the blue she was sitting there ... and I still wasn't singing with the band ... she was, but she was ...

And I'd begun writing by then ... so ...

And then you heard that she was gonna, she was up for, to join the band ...

Yeah, I was telephoned by Jim McCarty, and he sent me a reel-to-reel tape, cause I don't think cassettes were even invented, at that time ... (Annie laughs)

Now Jim McCarty and Keith Relf, both formerly of the Yardbirds, ("Yeah, that's right ...") which was a, a completely different kind of music, ("Yeah ...") that's what was so interesting about them changing and forming this new band Renaissance. ("Yeah ...") I wonder do you know where Keith and Jim got the idea ... was it ...

It was, yeah, I think it was mainly Keith. He always loved classical music, Keith, it was Canon [by] Pachelbel that was his favourite piece of music. He played it all the time, and he always thought that we should merge everything, and, and um, and he did.

I wonder if he was, influenced by, uh, Yes or Genesis or Pink Floyd, or were, or perhaps ...

I don't think Keith was influenced by anybody.

Perhaps they were influenced by him ... you know ...

I don't know; but he was quite solitary, I mean, he was really [a] solitary person ...

Um hmm. Did you spend a lot of time physically with the other members of the band, or is it pretty much you were just all alone in Cornwall?

Funnily enough I knew Keith, Jim and Jane Relf; ("Um hmm ...") Keith Relf, Jane Relf and Jim McCarty very well, ("Um hmm ...") and I knew Louis Cennamo vaguely ("Right.") and John Hawken, I played a game of chess with him and I won ("Um hmm ...") and he didn't really talk to me after ... (Ed and Annie start to giggle)

But I mean, (Annie giggles) did you, did you, were you pretty much alone in Cornwall, or did you come to London a lot or did they come to ...

I used to spend a lot of time in London ("Oh, I see ...") and they spent a lot of time in Cornwall ("I see ... ") so we were together a lot. ("Oh, I see ...") But then when the new lineup came along, ("Um hmm ...") I was friends with Annie and I was friends with John Tout, but I think really it took me ages to get to know the others. (Annie: "Um hmm ...") Michael Dunford, who I worked with, ("Yeah") I've never really got to know him, not even now, I don't really know him. We worked together really well, but ...

So you, so that's what's interesting, you started collaborating really with Keith Relf then originally, right? ("That's right.") and then you switched to collaborate with Mickey. ("Jim next ... Jim McCarty, yeah.") Oh, with Jim next, and then with Mickey Dunford. ("Yeah.") And so how did, well Mickey just said, 'oh well Betty writes the lyrics, I'll write with her now ...', I mean, it was ...

Yeah, it was, John Tout rang me up ("Oh I see ...") and said, 'we have a new guitar player and he wants to ("Oh I see ...") write some melodies and can you write lyrics with him?' And I said, 'ask him phone me, ("Um hmm ...") we'll talk about it.' (Annie and Betty both giggle.)

But, and later on you, it became that you, they would come up with the melodies first and then you would put lyrics on it ...

Yeah, and he did phone. And I said, 'yeah, just send me a tape,' so he sent me a tape which was the wrong speed. So I had to go to a friend's house and transfer it onto another reel-to-reel and get it to the right speed and it turned into "Running Hard", ("Oh, I see.") and that was the first song we wrote together ...

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Running Hard".)

Let's talk a few, a few of the songs that people would know and, and love, I'm sure. Gone, well, "Prologue" I, we won't ask you about since it's basically Annie scatting there with, ah, on Mickey's, ("That's right ...") on Mickey's tune, ah, but, and I see there's a McCarty-Thatcher tune on that first album, "Bound For Infinity"; so that was one of those left over, I guess ("Yeah, that's it ...") from the days of the previous, ah, band. "Spare Some Love" and "Sounds Of The Sea" then I guess were two new ones you wrote with Mickey for that first album.

Yeah, that's right. I always regretted writing "Sounds Of The Sea" because I felt that it was such a personal thing, I should have not sent it off, cause it felt to personal. And every time I heard it for the first five years I cringed and thought, 'oh my God, everyone can see into my brain' ... and, ah ...

Yeah, what were you thinking there, what was that about?

Yeah, it just feels like that, that song is me, and I shouldn't have written it down and every, all these strangers here ("Really?") yeah ...

Part of the artist's job is to reveal themselves, right?

But I think I went too far ...

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Sounds Of The Sea".)

Did you know that Annie? ("No I didn't, hmm" ... laughs) On the second, on ah, I, the second album, of course, well it was "Ashes Are Burning" which has become a Renaissance classic ... ("Yeah ...") aah, the extended instrumental thing, but the song itself is a really, really a very evocative song. What were you thinking of there, just ashes burning?

Well, it was a near death experience; it is what's called a near death experience. I had, I died ... ("That you, that you had?") Yeah, and I couldn't describe it in any words. ("You're looking well ...you know, yeah, for someone ... ") I look great. And it suddently dawned ... the lyricist. No it was genuine, it was a near death experience. And I wrote it down but didn't tell anyone about it because they would think I was a drugged hippy or something.

Yeah, were you a drugged hippy? ("No, no, no ...") Well some of us were ... ("that was before, yeah ...")

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Ashes Are Burning".)

... "Carpet Of The Sun" ... uh ...

Yeah, that's my back garden ...

Really, delightful little song, and also a Renaissance classic, ("Yeah ...") one of the very popular songs over the years ...

It's always in the set, actually, isn't it ...

It's the joy of being alive, and seeing the grass grow which was the "Carpet Of The Sun", yeah ...

(Ed plays an excerpt from "Carpet Of The Sun".)

Speaking with Annie Haslam and lyricist Betty Thatcher from the band Renaissance here on the 'Sunday Night Alternative'. Do you think your songs are kind of easily understood, I mean are they, they seem obvious to you, I mean, as far as what, that people should figure out what they're about, or ...

No I don't. I think people will feel that they're about this, and I think that they're about that. But they're about whatever you think they are about. ("Um hmm.") I mean they mean something special to me but then somebody else, they say, 'this is about me and my boyfriend' or you know and I think, 'that's nice.'

Well, cause it can mean different things ("That's right.") to different people. We mentioned "Running Hard", ah, that was you said the first one you wrote with Mickey. Ah, and the song itself, now a lot of these songs got embellished, instrumentally ("Yeah...") by the band especially "Running Hard", it has that whole big, long intro ... ("Yeah, John Tout did a really good job on that one ...") John Tout ... but what was the song itself ... about?

There's a long dark cliff path, that if you miss the last bus from Hayle to St. Ives, you have to walk. And it's, um, the sea's at one side of you and there's a train the other side. And there's, I looked up through the trees, I already had the music, so I had it in my mind. I looked up through the trees, and the trees looked like webs; and the stars and the moon looked like mirrors then. I think that's how it began. And by the time I got home, I was ready to write. (Annie: "Hmm.")

Another one would be, ah, well there's a little thing called, "I Think Of You", or, ah, we used to play that a lot in the old days, a very soft little ...

Oh ... and that one went down so well on stage, didn't it.

Yeah, and years, actually you didn't perform it that much in the early years, ("I did with my band ...") but then you started to later, yeah, or the Acoustic Renaissance, is all. "I Think Of You" really, was it, did you have that kind of arrangement in mind, I mean, what do you think of when you're writing these, do you, do you think they're going to turn ...

If I get the music first, which helps, you know ... ("Uh huh, right ...") And then, you know, sometimes I'm there for the, for when John Tout puts his magic touch on ...

Well some of them are, seem simple ... ("Yeah ...") I mean, that one seems to be a simple little song ...

Yeah, I just wanted to write a song that, that, that meant that you can love everybody, ("Cool ...") in every way, even the unlovable ...

(Ed plays an excerpt from "I Think Of You".)

How about the "Black Flame"?

I think that's ... OK, I know exactly why I wrote that. It was about the Vietnam War. ("Hmm ...") And I was talking to somebody in um, at a party and they said, um, that, that they thought, thought, 'killing was so bad, it was terrible.' And I said, 'yes of course.' And they said, 'so we should take the Americans and line them up against the wall and shoot them' and I said, 'well can't you hear what you are saying?' ("That's killing them. Yeah ...") That's killing them, you're, you're being crazy ... And uh, I went home from the party and thought 'yeah, but everything's like that, it's crazy.' Um, we're all, we're all the same, I mean, badness in people is in us; ah, people don't think we're not bad, but we are. We're all capable of doing things if we think it's right. And it might be wrong.

Ah, let me ask you about "Mother Russia" now that's supposedly about Alexander Solzhenitsyn, right?

Yeah, I read the book A Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich and I already had the music from Michael and it just, I didn't think I wrote anything touching that man. ("Huh ...") I just felt that I hadn't done a good job, but other people say that it felt good ...

Yeah, uh ... the song "Ocean Gypsy"?

Yeah, well that's kind of the sun and the moon. I always thought it was so sad, that they, it seems that they're lovers, you know. And I always thought the sun was the man and the moon was the woman. And we've got a hill in Cornwall called Trencrom Hill and at, in the dawn you can see the sun rise and the moon set ... and it's like they're lovers and they never really meet.

Hmm, that's a pretty song too. Ah, see if we can come up with a couple more, some of the Renaissance, ah, favourites, ah, oh, I don't know, maybe, ah, "Midas Man" ...

I knew you were going to say that ... I was going to say that ...

Yes, you were going to say "Midas Man" ... you liked that song, haven't you, yes ...

Yeah, I love that song, yeah ...

Yeah, the 'midas touch', fairly obvious but ...

Come on, speak the truth ...

OK, um, a friend of mine was working in a pottery ... and um, pots of money is a reference to the pottery that she worked, and she worked in this pottery designing the pottery. ("Um hmm...") And she was a very good designer and she got paid less than she would if she worked at a counter in Woolworths and I knew her boss. So I went to her boss and said, 'don't you think that Marilyn deserves more money because she's not only making these pots but she's designing them?' And he said, 'Ah, you know ...' basically 'no', so I went home and wrote "Midas Man". (laughs)

(Ed starts to play an excerpt from "Midas Man". However, during the very beginning of the excerpt, Annie says in the background, "She's the one that introduced me to Betty, actually ..." referring to Marilyn, Betty's potter friend.)

[A private discussion held in the studio while "Midas Man" was being aired to the radio audience concludes with:] You should have, should have dated ... for the very first time, really.

So there's another touching on there.

That's interesting, well you, you didn't live in Cornwall, Annie, you were in London?

Yes I did.

Oh you did live in Cornwall?

I lived in Cornwall -- no, hang on -- the first time I met you ... I did, the first time I met her ...

Oh, that makes it a little less strange. I was getting this thing of you were hundereds of miles apart and yet you somehow knew each other ...

No, no, you know what, I'm sorry. I was, I was living in London. I came down with Eric, a boyfriend. I met up with Marilyn and we went for a drink and that's when we met Betty.

But you had previously been based in Cornwall, hadn't you?

Oh yeah, no, I had been living in Cornwall before that ... you know.

But you didn't meet her when you were there?

No.

But that's, is it all fate? It was all fate that then came together. (Annie and Betty: "Very strange ...") Well, a lot of great songs have come out of this. Ah, could, I guess, "The Vultures Fly High" is another one ... yeah, to fall, kind of, there's a, there's a dark side to some of the silly songs, you know ...

Well that was actually written for Wishbone Ash and it had even darker words. Yeah, and then Annie said they're a little too dark, do you remember? ("Ummm.") They were very dark so I tried to make it a little lighter ...

And, ah, "Trip To The Fair" is a light one, kind of, a runabout ...

Just a fun song, just to have some fun ...

Do you remember when I rang you up?

Almost like a children's, ah, rhyme ...

Yeah, I was, it was when I had just been asked out by Roy Wood and I rang Betty and I was really excited and I said, 'you know, I'm going out with Roy Wood.' And she said, 'call me back when you've been out with him and tell me what it was like.' So, we went out, and I went out to dinner ...

And that was "The Vultures Fly High" ... oh no ... that was ... (all start to laugh)

No this is a "Trip To The Fair" (laughs continue)!! So I went out with Roy and, ah, had a fabulous time, drinking these great big bowls of, ah, these Mai Tais or something -- something, no, Scorpions -- and eating the gardenias. He was a crazy man -- we were eating all of these flowers out of the drink and oh, really zoomed up, we were. And then when we finished there, we decided to go to the fair on Hampstead Heath. But when we got there, there was nobody there. So I rang Betty the next day and I said, you know, what had happened, I said, 'we went to the fair but there was nobody there, they're was no, everybody had gone.'

And Betty goes, 'ah, a trip to the fair but no-one was there, there's nobody's there, no-one was there ... '

That was it, wasn't it?

That's a fabulous song, isn't it?

Oh, that's, what I did that one on the last tour I did, Betty ...

That's a good song though, isn't it?

Yeah, we never did it with Renaissance ... we did it, maybe, I think we did it once ...

But Annie had done it acoustically more recently and it's lovely ... in fact, it was almost, one night, was spontaneous, you just kind of did, went into it, somebody requested it ...

Oh, yeah, before, before we learnt it as a band, I sang it on my own ... ("Yeah, umm ...") yeah ... and they went crazy.

It was great! ("No, I've missed all this ... you know... I don't want to either ...") Oh, you see, you're the mystery woman and yet you've missed a lot of this thing too. We're talking with Betty Thatcher and Annie Haslam. Annie, you certainly know, the voice of Renaissance over the years, and now doing solo projects with her band, and so on. But Betty, the mystery woman, from Cornwall, England, is it, have you ever really, been interviewed about this before, or ...?

No, never have ... I haven't ...

Really?

There was a PR person -- Barbara Peppy -- and she was always trying to get me to be interviewed ("Yeah ...") and I always thought 'well ... no.'

This is her first interview ... or my first interview, it's not obvious ...

This interview I'm doing because you, you, you're a legend to me ... and um ... it's true ... yeah.

Oh ... (laughs)

But, isn't that right? I did my first interview with Ed.

Right, right, right.

And now Betty's doing her first interview with Ed.

So I feel we're interwoven and, you know ... it's a pleasure to be here.

Well, you're kind of the missing link in, in the, in the, whole story because you're that, and ... and really I, I'd, and part of me feels like, you, you haven't gotten the credit, you know, or at least the publicity that you deserve ...

I haven't gotten by that actually, ah, yeah.

I mean, you know what I mean, like Taupin gets all of this attention for writing with Elton John but you know, ("Yeah ...") and lyricist, uh, song writing teams are pretty well, I guess like Keith Reed of Procol Harum was a non-performing member. He was the writer but not performing with the band. Do you play, do you play a musical instrument ...

No I don't, I wish I could, but ...

So that you could have just come along and now, well you have to come to some of Annie's shows next time she does some and ("I will ...") and maybe, uh, ("I'm looking forward to it.") and maybe recite a line or two or something. I think, I think the fans ...

Well, she wouldn't be able to come and sing with me. ("Oh, right ...") Cause she's tone deaf.

Well, she can recite. (Annie laughs feverishly.) She can recite. But now you two, I hear, are writing together. You're trying to write some lyrics together, huh?

Yeah, we did one yesterday.

Oh that's interesting ("Yeah.") That's really interesting. The tradition continues and who knows what the other guys are doing, all kinds of other things and Annie is now an American here with us and we're happy to have her and happy to see, meet you Betty and, uh, hear some of your stories about those days. It's very interesting and, um, it kind of fills in a little bit of the, of the missing, the missing pieces of the old Renaissance fans will enjoy this. We thank you for coming by we'll, ah, hopefully enjoy, are you still writing, or, doing, doing other things too?

Oh yes, I'm writing, still writing with Michael Dunford still, and with Terry Sullivan, the ex-percussionist of Renaissance, he plays in a band, a couple of bands ...

Our thanks to Betty Thatcher ... our thanks to Betty Thatcher and Annie Haslam from Renaissance, 94 WYSP, that's all for 'The Sunday Night Alternative' for tonight. I've enjoyed hearing Betty Thatcher for all those years and Annie's great vocals.

(Ed then closes the show with some commercial endorsements.)